tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999467500145167346.post742816184312360291..comments2023-05-11T04:38:06.086-04:00Comments on Analysis of the Post-chareidi Phenomenon : Philosophy, Science and the Evolution of Man - Part 2Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999467500145167346.post-19383688732939172312011-02-04T10:10:06.073-05:002011-02-04T10:10:06.073-05:00>>> But note that this “separate ma’amar”...>>> But note that this “separate ma’amar” thing you refer to makes more sense as “another ma’amar” rather than “a separate ma’amar<br /><br />I am not sure what the chiluk is between "another ma'amar" and “a separate ma’amar". Either way Hashem "spoke" a second time when he put in the neshama. Can you explain what you mean by those 2 terms. <br /><br />Also, in looking at the Ramban again I see he says first Hashem created the "nefesh hatenuos" in all animals and man. Then he created the guf and put the nefesh into the guf. Finally, he put the nishmas elyonis in man.<br /><br />Based on the gemara in Sanhedrin, what hour did these 3 things take place? I would say creating the nefesh and guf was in hour 2&3 and putting in the neshama was in hour 4.<br /><br />Do you agree with this understanding?Chaim Markowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08927146649559508598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999467500145167346.post-38653848461524927172011-02-03T21:35:35.608-05:002011-02-03T21:35:35.608-05:00Dear Chaim,
Shalom Aleichem! Welcome to our humbl...Dear Chaim,<br /><br />Shalom Aleichem! Welcome to our humble blog. Thank you for writing. May Hashem grant you <i>bracha v’hatzlacha b’chol ma’aseh yideichem…</i><br /><br />You wrote: <i> I agree with your points… However... I have a question on what you wrote. You said</i><br /> <br />>>> God formed Adam from the earth and breathed the breath of life into him. This is all contained in one verse of the Torah and obviously describes one uniform, uninterrupted event. There isn’t even the slightest hint that any time elapsed between the yetzirah and the nefichah.<br /><br /><i>However, if you look at the Ramban he seems to say the following.<br /><br />a) From the ma'amar of "hachayah v'habeheima" all "nefashos hatenuah" were made at the same time.</i><br /><br />Agreed<br /> <br /><i>b) After that Hashem made different gufos. First the beheima and chaya and then the guf of man with his nefesh.</i><br /><br />Agreed. I’d like to note that the Ramban is simply following the <i>pashtus</i> of the <i>pesukim</i>.<br /> <br /><i>c) Then Hashem breatehd into man the nishams elyona. Also, this act of putting in the nishmas elyona is a separate ma'amar of "Vayifach b'apav'.</i><br /><br />Yes. But note that this “separate ma’amar” thing you refer to makes more sense as “<i><b>another</b> ma’amar</i>” rather than <i>“a <b>separate</b> ma’amar</i>”. Chevel brings another KY which changes the <i>dalet</i> of <i>echad,</i> to a <i>reish,</i> i.e. <i>acher</i>. It refers to “another” <i>pasuk</i> in Koheles. <br /><br /><i>It seems from the way I understand the Ramban that there was a lapse between yetzirah and neficha-although we have no idea how long or short it was.</i><br /><br />I don’t see that in the Ramban. Here’s my translation. “and after that the body of man, and he put in it this [animate] soul and after that He blew in him the transcendental soul…”<br /><br />Why do you feel that Ramban implies there was a lapse of time between the <i>nefesh ha’bihamis</i> and <i>elohis</i>? Perhaps the “separate ma’amar” reference in he Ramban is throwing you off? I don’t see anything in the Ramban which implies a lapse of time. But if it helps any, Chazal themselves say that Adam acquired his <i>neshama</i> in the fourth hour of the sixth day of creation but they do not distinguish between the two souls. In the third hour he was still inanimate. As soon as the <i>nesinas nishamah</i> was completed in the fourth hour, Adam immediately stood on his feet in the fifth with both souls.<br /><br />Here’s my translation of the ma’amar chazal in Sanhedrin. <br /><br />“Rabbi Yochanan bar Chanina stated: The (sixth) day consisted of twelve hours; in the first hour, his (Adam’s) dust was gathered. In the second, he was made a form. In the third, his organs were set. In the fourth, he was ‘ensouled’. In the fifth, he stood on his feet. In the sixth, he named names (of all the animals). In the seventh, he was paired with Chava. In the eighth, two mounted the bed and four descended. In the ninth, he was commanded not to eat from the tree. In the tenth, he corrupted. In the eleventh, he was judged and in the twelfth he was ejected and went along his way…” (Sanhedrin 38b)Simcha Cofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243327012385531727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999467500145167346.post-15019186463586605832011-02-03T10:44:14.445-05:002011-02-03T10:44:14.445-05:00I agree with your points that Slifkin is reading i...I agree with your points that Slifkin is reading into the Ramban something that the Ramban never siad. <br />However, I do have a question on what you wrote. You said <br />>>> God formed Adam from the earth and breathed the breath of life into him. This is all contained in one verse of the Torah and obviously describes one uniform, uninterrupted event. There isn’t even the slightest hint that any time elapsed between the yetzirah and the nefichah.<br /><br />However, if you look at the Ramban he seems to say the following.<br /><br />a) From the ma'amar of "hachayah v'habeheima" all "nefashos hatenuah" were made at the same time. <br />b) After that Hashem made different gufos. First the beheima and chaya and then the guf of man with his nefesh.<br />c) Then Hashem breatehd into man the nishams elyona. Also, this act of putting in the nishmas elyona is a separate ma'amar of "Vayifach b'apav'.<br /><br />It seems from the way I understand the Ramban that there was a lapse between yetzirah and neficha-although we have no idea how long or short it was. And I agree 100% to conjecture that the Ramban means evolution is a major stretch.Chaim Markowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08927146649559508598noreply@blogger.com